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oranje

2021-07-19

[方法探讨] 回望Harry Potter

好久没来坛子,今儿赶上个热闹, 又是Harry Potter。Harry Potter在国内英语启蒙论坛有神一样的地位;经常看见讨论:娃儿轻松读HP,什么时候读HP,怎么读HP?什么水平读HP?
俺家娃儿还算得上英语成功启蒙吧(4年级读完HP,6年级开读莎翁,一路考过CAE,其中阅读接近满分,7年级阅读水平1630L),当娘的回头看,Harry Potter是我家脱盲工具,杀时间的工具,上学期还因为副科课上读英语版HP被老师批评了。要说HP语言价值,文学价值,思想价值都一般;JKR还挺white left,整套书里little holes everywhere。
要说HP是什么水平?不过是母语3-6年级的popular课外读物。
英语水平是听说读写的集合,读个HP算个阅读上的小里程碑吧,还有久远的路要走。

要说多久能轻松读HP?看从什么点计算时间。我家从英语小文盲状态到轻松读完HP也就一年吧。不过之前是两个听说流利的英语小文盲。
要说背单词,单词真没什么好背的,明白发音规则,听多了,读多了,自然会认,会写,会用。我不是技术流派的,也不依托什么背单词工具,听听,读读,写写,娃儿词汇是欧标C2。熟能生巧,用多了就会。
有人出了本unofficial vocabulary of HP,  收录了3000来个比较难且有用的词。有兴趣的可以找来看看。

回望HP,罗琳阿姨的7本书算是让我家娃中英文前后脚脱盲,甚是高兴。也给执着于HP的大家提个醒,阅读只读HP这种fiction就缺了一大半,年纪越大缺得越多。
1681 查看 30 收藏帖子 (4)

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  • oranje

    楼主 2021-8-1 16:12:37 使用道具

    推荐
    本帖最后由 oranje 于 2021-8-1 10:46 编辑
    Sunshine82 发表于 2021-8-1 05:58
    HP系列资源非常丰富,音频、视频、彩绘版都有,一套读下来词汇量能增长不少。
    可惜,家里小孩听到第四本就 ...

    我意思很简单。HP是个儿童文学,后来为了迎合市场有所改变。别把它当终点,厉害的不行的喜马拉雅山珠穆朗玛峰。不过是个小山头,翻过去了就很简单。也不是什么必读的东西。喜欢就用好,不喜欢就读别的。
  • shaomx

    2021-7-19 21:39:07 使用道具

    牛娃!最重要的是之前听说流利了这个基础太好了,楼主是孩子很小很早就有启蒙理念的人!你的孩子很幸运。我是儿子都九岁了我才意识到需要启蒙,这时儿子不是文盲,是英语盲,啥听力字母啥的全零。
  • high5

    2021-7-20 03:43:00 使用道具

    Harry Potter 在儿童英文书籍中,真是能算上一笔呢。
    不过现在似乎是没当初那么热了。客观来讲,据美国报纸的报道,这部书确实提升了美国孩子的整体阅读水平:)功不可没。
    我们一家人当初还曾今到影院排大队等首映呢。

    我家是从二年级开始听,后来去读的。 前些日子这孩子回家,我们偶尔谈论到当初读HP,她确定的说,是三年级才真正读进去,读懂的。 我们这还是在英语环境中呢。这套书她也是来来回回读了十来遍。 其他书也有追过, 但都没有HP这么迷。
  • 海上鱼儿

    2021-7-20 09:24:12 使用道具

    感谢各位分享
    学习了
  • Giant

    2021-7-20 13:30:24 使用道具

    Harold Bloom就diss HP。不过HP方便比较各家(牛)娃。
  • 一叶知秋47

    2021-7-20 17:36:46 使用道具

  • Jurlique

    2021-7-21 16:12:33 使用道具

    我也觉得就是个儿童文学,回头看看不算啥。
  • JadenZ

    2021-7-22 15:55:58 使用道具

    哈利波特的文学性还是不错的,楼主未免有点贬得过头了。虽然并不是什么必读之书,但是jk的文笔还是让它区分于很多畅销口水书。
  • oranje

    楼主 2021-7-22 20:48:39 使用道具

    JadenZ 发表于 2021-7-22 08:55
    哈利波特的文学性还是不错的,楼主未免有点贬得过头了。虽然并不是什么必读之书,但是jk的文笔还是让它区分 ...

    首先,我可没贬罗琳阿姨,我家三套各种版本HP,早的盒装本还是古董级的Bloomsbury 1-5,当时后面2本还没出呢!还有1-4本绘图版本;
    其次,每人自己有自己的秤,你读的书跟我读的书不一样,你跟我不一样;


  • JadenZ

    2021-7-22 22:22:38 使用道具

    我支持你的观点,如有冒犯请多包涵。不过

    要说HP语言价值,文学价值,思想价值都一般;JKR还挺white left,整套书里little holes everywhere


    就算读过全球限量版,和上面这句是不是贬意应该没有逻辑关系。
  • shaomx

    2021-7-23 08:26:23 使用道具

    JadenZ 发表于 2021-7-22 15:55
    哈利波特的文学性还是不错的,楼主未免有点贬得过头了。虽然并不是什么必读之书,但是jk的文笔还是让它区分 ...

    我没觉得楼主是在贬低哈利波特,否则也不会收藏那么多版本,我更多的是认为是我们应该理性的去对待哈利波特,而不是过度追捧,奉上神坛。哈利波特易读性文学性趣味性确实都非常牛,同时难度坡度作者也处理的非常合理,作为由初中章向高章迈进,实在是一套难得一见的绝佳材料,但是也只是一部儿童通俗魔幻小说而已。抛去它的热度,类比中文,对孩子的文学价值,我觉得还比不上国内的曹文轩系列。我觉得我们应该是向楼主学习,从战略上藐视它,并不代表贬低它,从战术上充分重视它,研究它,吃定它。
  • 开心的爸妈

    2021-7-23 08:53:39 使用道具

    感谢各位分享
    学习了
  • Giant

    2021-7-26 20:28:30 使用道具

    Is 曹文轩 so good?
  • 永恒36

    2021-8-1 01:36:10 使用道具

    别扯了,jk写哈的时候可不会想这么多,她写哈当时日子可不好过。哈当神怎么了,小说好看才是第一位的。这么好的书,不香吗,必须是必读呀!读的人多才能当标杆呀!
  • Sunshine82

    2021-8-1 12:58:01 使用道具

    HP系列资源非常丰富,音频、视频、彩绘版都有,一套读下来词汇量能增长不少。
    可惜,家里小孩听到第四本就不往后听了,书也不肯读,说不喜欢奇幻类的小说。我囤了不少HP的书,都可惜了。
    HP是儿童奇幻类小说里优秀的作品,国外教师评价说:字数多,人物多,学生通过读HP提升了词汇量,提升了理清复杂人物关系的能力,为读严肃文学读物搭了阶梯。
  • oranje

    楼主 2021-8-1 16:08:28 使用道具

    Sunshine82 发表于 2021-8-1 05:58
    HP系列资源非常丰富,音频、视频、彩绘版都有,一套读下来词汇量能增长不少。
    可惜,家里小孩听到第四本就 ...

    耶鲁的教授评价HP:
    Can 35 Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.

    By Harold Bloom
    Wall Street Journal

    Taking arms against Harry Potter, at this moment, is to emulate Hamlet taking arms against a sea of troubles. By opposing the sea, you won't end it. The Harry Potter epiphenomenon will go on, doubtless for some time, as J. R. R. Tolkien did, and then wane.

    The official newspaper of our dominant counter-culture, The New York Times, has been startled by the Potter books into establishing a new policy for its not very literate book review. Rather than crowd out the Grishams, Clancys, Crichtons, Kings, and other vastly popular prose fictions on its fiction bestseller list, the Potter volumes will now lead a separate children's list. J. K. Rowling, the chronicler of Harry Potter, thus has an unusual distinction: She has changed the policy of the policy-maker.

    Imaginative Vision

    I read new children's literature, when I can find some of any value, but had not tried Rowling until now. I have just concluded the 300 pages of the first book in the series, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," purportedly the best of the lot. Though the book is not well written, that is not in itself a crucial liability. It is much better to see the movie, "The Wizard of Oz," than to read the book upon which it was based, but even the book possessed an authentic imaginative vision. "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" does not, so that one needs to look elsewhere for the book's (and its sequels') remarkable success. Such speculation should follow an account of how and why Harry Potter asks to be read.

    The ultimate model for Harry Potter is "Tom Brown's School Days" by Thomas Hughes, published in 1857. The book depicts the Rugby School presided over by the formidable Thomas Arnold, remembered now primarily as the father of Matthew Arnold, the Victorian critic-poet. But Hughes' book, still quite readable, was realism, not fantasy. Rowling has taken "Tom Brown's School Days" and re-seen it in the magical mirror of Tolkein. The resultant blend of a schoolboy ethos with a liberation from the constraints of reality-testing may read oddly to me, but is exactly what millions of children and their parents desire and welcome at this time.

    In what follows, I may at times indicate some of the inadequacies of "Harry Potter." But I will keep in mind that a host are reading it who simply will not read superior fare, such as Kenneth Grahame's "The Wind in the Willows" or the "Alice" books of Lewis Carroll. Is it better that they read Rowling than not read at all? Will they advance from Rowling to more difficult pleasures?

    Rowling presents two Englands, mundane and magical, divided not by social classes, but by the distinction between the "perfectly normal" (mean and selfish) and the adherents of sorcery. The sorcerers indeed seem as middle-class as the Muggles, the name the witches and wizards give to the common sort, since those addicted to magic send their sons and daughters off to Hogwarts, a Rugby school where only witchcraft and wizardry are taught. Hogwarts is presided over by Albus Dumbeldore as Headmaster, he being Rowling's version of Tolkein's Gandalf. The young future sorcerers are just like any other budding Britons, only more so, sports and food being primary preoccupations. (Sex barely enters into Rowling's cosmos, at least in the first volume.)

    Harry Potter, now the hero of so many millions of children and adults, is raised by dreadful Muggle relatives after his sorcerer parents are murdered by the wicked Voldemort, a wizard gone trollish and, finally, post-human. Precisely why poor Harry is handed over by the sorcerer elders to his priggish aunt and uncle is never clarified by Rowling, but it is a nice touch, suggesting again how conventional the alternative Britain truly is. They consign their potential hero-wizard to his nasty blood-kin, rather than let him be reared by amiable warlocks and witches, who would know him for one of their own.

    The child Harry thus suffers the hateful ill treatment of the Dursleys, Muggles of the most Muggleworthy sort, and of their sadistic son, his cousin Dudley. For some early pages we might be in Ken Russell's film of "Tommy," the rock-opera by The Who, except that the prematurely wise Harry is much healthier than Tommy. A born survivor, Harry holds on until the sorcerers rescue him and send him off to Hogwarts, to enter upon the glory of his schooldays.

    Hogwarts enchants many of Harry's fans, perhaps because it is much livelier than the schools they attend, but it seems to me an academy more tiresome than grotesque. When the future witches and wizards of Great Britain are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves with bizarre intramural sports. it is rather a relief when Harry heroically suffers the ordeal of a confrontation with Voldemort, which the youth handles admirably.

    One can reasonably doubt that "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" is going to prove a classic of children's literature, but Rowling, whatever the aesthetic weaknesses of her work, is at least a millennial index to our popular culture. So huge an audience gives her importance akin to rock stars, movie idols, TV anchors, and successful politicians. Her prose style, heavy on cliche, makes no demands upon her readers. In an arbitrarily chosen single page--page 4--of the first Harry Potter book, I count seven cliches, all of the "stretch his legs" variety.

    How to read"Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"? Why, very quickly, to begin with, perhaps also to make an end. Why read it? Presumably, if you cannot be persuaded to read anything better, Rowling will have to do. is there any redeeming education use to Rowling? Is there any to Stephen King? Why read, if what you read will not enrich mind or spirit or personality? For all I know, the actual wizards and witches of Britain, or America, may provide an alternative culture for more people than is commonly realized.

    Perhaps Rowling appeals to millions of reader non-readers because they sense her wistful sincerity, and want to join her world, imaginary or not. She feeds a vast hunger for unreality; can that be bad? At least her fans are momentarily emancipated from their screens, and so may not forget wholly the sensation of turning the pages of a book, any book.

    Intelligent Children

    And yet I feel a discomfort with the Harry Potter mania, and I hope that my discontent is not merely a highbrow snobbery, or a nostalgia for a more literate fantasy to beguile (shall we say) intelligent children of all ages. Can more than 35 million book buyers, and their offspring, be wrong? yes, they have been, and will continue to be for as long as they persevere with Potter.

    A vast concourse of inadequate works, for adults and for children, crams the dustbins of the ages. At a time when public judgment is no better and no worse than what is proclaimed by the ideological cheerleaders who have so destroyed humanistic study, anything goes. The cultural critics will, soon enough, introduce Harry Potter into their college curriculum, and The New York Times will go on celebrating another confirmation of the dumbing-down it leads and exemplifies.

    Mr. Bloom is a professor at Yale.

    他在关于安徒生的文章里也狠了一把罗琳和史蒂芬金。史蒂芬金的有些作品还挺好的,哈里波特基本上就是爽文。He pointed out the cause of the Harry Potter mania: readers, young or old, are hungering for unreality.

    类似批评还有很多。

    家长没有critical thinking很危险啊。校园bully小能手就是........


    [url=]投诉[/url]





  • 纪律

    2021-8-10 09:22:25 使用道具

    感谢各位分享
  • duoduofish

    2021-8-10 10:23:09 使用道具

       娃不喜欢HP的飘过。我家娃一直不喜欢HP,也有可能是先看了纳尼亚。她觉得HP没有超越纳尼亚的套路。
  • 牧云

    2021-8-10 17:26:27 使用道具

    很认真地飘过。。。
  • 云启

    2021-8-10 17:28:35 使用道具

    姐姐的观点比较中肯,一个档次较高的校园小说,阅读性不错的,价值性一般!!
  • Summer爸

    2021-9-3 10:49:27 使用道具

    本帖最后由 Summer爸 于 2021-9-3 10:55 编辑

    对于有文学性、思想性的作品,小学生可能还欣赏不了,至少我家娃四年级了,还是毫无鉴赏能力。这个事情急也没用,品味需要慢慢提升,看得多了,自然会形成自己的品味。

    对我家小朋友来说,哈利波特的美妙在于作者恢弘的想象力,故事情节紧凑,处处揪着小朋友的心,让她沉浸其中欲罢不能,不知不觉就轻松拓展了词汇。和楼主一样,对我来说,哈利波特是一个工具,是小朋友语言学习道路上的好帮手。所以趁着她感兴趣的年龄,英文之后她连中文哈利波特都读了。

    她读哈利波特,说能看到罗尔德.达尔、纳尼亚等系列故事的影子。她会说J.K Rowling肯定看过那些书。有段时间她还常仿写哈利波特故事。

    再有小朋友对J.K Rowling本人兴趣大增,她就和追星一样,一网打尽了她的所有书,还追踪她的采访纪录片,听她在哈佛大学的Keynote speaking... ...

    小朋友自从对欧洲历史发生兴趣以来,她从另一个角度在破解哈利波特,比如她从头发的颜色猜测民族,说可能起源于哪,还发现哈利波特里的一些名字来源于历史人物,然后理解了J.K Rowling起名的深意....

    我家小朋友迷恋哈利波特大概有两年时间,对故事细节简直如数家珍,最近兴致才减弱。语言学习路上,我最感谢三套书,其中最重要的一套就是哈利波特。
    语言路上即使哈利波特千好万好,千万不能只读哈利波特。看过了就过,还有更大、更美的文学世界在等着小朋友。



  • oranje

    楼主 2021-9-4 11:04:40 使用道具

    本帖最后由 oranje 于 2021-9-4 04:06 编辑
    Summer爸 发表于 2021-9-3 03:49
    对于有文学性、思想性的作品,小学生可能还欣赏不了,至少我家娃四年级了,还是毫无鉴赏能力。这个事情急也 ...

    纳尼亚有7本所以HP是7本,罗琳自己说的。
    所以我说是回望。还没走到和正在山里的觉得是个大山头,尤其孩子刚到山脚下的时候家长会觉得超有成就,等孩子回望的时候HP不过是个小山包。再看看罗琳别的作品和言论,孩子会觉得,呵呵.....

  • lapa

    2021-9-5 08:02:30 使用道具

    oranje 发表于 2021-9-4 11:04
    纳尼亚有7本所以HP是7本,罗琳自己说的。
    所以我说是回望。还没走到和正在山里的觉得是个大山头,尤其孩 ...

    我家娃3年级听读完了树屋,然后开始转过来谜HP,每天听,读4
  • lapa

    2021-9-5 08:04:28 使用道具

    音频语速太快了,我自己跟不上,但娃听得好像很入迷。我都怀疑他到底有没有听懂。那有没有什么方法,让我知道娃真的还是假的听读懂了这书?
  • lapa

    2021-9-5 08:06:31 使用道具

    HP音频语速,在我来说,太快了。CET6级的我也直呼跟不上。我让娃将复读机语速调为慢速1,他不肯。我其实是担心他跟不上,假装听懂了。
  • oranje

    楼主 2021-9-5 09:36:49 使用道具

    lapa 发表于 2021-9-5 01:04
    音频语速太快了,我自己跟不上,但娃听得好像很入迷。我都怀疑他到底有没有听懂。那有没有什么方法,让我知 ...

    有办法,但是不建议做。
    1、有国外老师编的每册的练习,找了让孩子做。第一拉低兴趣,第二没答案,家长水平不高还是不行
    2、家长看中文,跟着孩子英语进度看,一起中文讨论下剧情啊,细节啊,还有感受。只是孩子不一定买账
  • zhaohua801

    2021-9-5 10:02:09 使用道具

    Sunshine82 发表于 2021-8-1 12:58
    HP系列资源非常丰富,音频、视频、彩绘版都有,一套读下来词汇量能增长不少。
    可惜,家里小孩听到第四本就 ...

    我们也就读了四本,说不喜欢这种魔幻类的小说,也不喜欢纳尼亚传奇等等。
  • kittywang1983

    2021-9-5 10:05:04 使用道具

    听看完树屋能接HP?这是不是差距有点大?
  • Hope妈妈

    2021-9-6 09:05:20 使用道具

    本帖最后由 liguoyu 于 2021-10-13 11:30 编辑

    --